1. Is the Patriot the same shaft as
the Balistik?
No. The Patriot has similar specs, same length, weight, constant
taper, and with it's 14.5 parallel tip section and is designed
to offer more trimming combinations than any other shaft on the
market. The Patriot CT44 uses a different manufacturing process.
2. Will the old software work?
Yes. Watch for new commercial clubmaking software that will work
with the Patriot and other shafts and is the most comprehensive
clubmaking software available for custom clubmakers.
3. Does it play like the Balistik?
Yes...very similar feel and playing characteristics.
4. At 130 grams the shaft is a bit heavy, why?
The Patriot CT 44 comes at a raw length of 44 inches, 3 inches
longer than most steel shafts. After making the necessary trimming
adjustments, the shaft is a standard weight steel shaft. For instance,
to get a Regular flex, the first step is to butt trim 4 inches,
then tip trim to length.
Ed Reeder wrote:
I found a single Apollo Balistik and its measurements are
Weight Spine
130g .020
Balance point 21 5/8"
Butt Trim 0"-254, 1"-262, 2"-271, 3"-280,
4"-289, 5"-298, 6"-308
Tip Trim* 0"-254, 1"-263, 2"-273, 3"-283,
4"-294
So, back of the envelope based upon the single Apollo sample,
the Patriot is VERY close to the Balistik. Balance Point is
basically identical, Patriot is a little lighter, Patriot is
perhaps a tad softer, tip and butt trim cpms are basically
the same.
It will be interesting to see what other come up with.
And no, I haven't made a club with the Patriots. Given
my "feel" I doubt that I would be able to tell the difference.
/Ed
I finished my set of Patriot-shafted
Ping Eye2s, using the
old Balistik software. It worked quite well, especially if
you have a freq. machine.
Here are the basics, using a 5"
clamp. Raw_CPM is full length
with a 254g tip weight. I shot for a Target CPM and got the
Result by tip trimming per the software.
Iron Raw_Wt. Raw_CPM Target Result
3 127.5g 249 295 295
4 128 249 300 300
5 127.5 250 304 305
6 128 250 308 308
7 128 250 313 313
8 128 250 317 316
9 128 250 321 319
W 129 250 326 323
The 8, 9, and W were given additional
tip trim to reach my
target (using my freq. machine). It "looks" like the
shorter
irons may need more tip trimming than the Balistik software
indicates.
All irons swingweighted at D3. The
Balistik software said D2,
but I believe this was my fault. I did the butt trimming based
upon my TrueMeasure club ruler and NOT the Balistik software.
I discovered that the measurement I fed into the software was
1/8" different (The irons had some bounce that I didn't factor
in to the Balistik parameters).
One other matter. I used the "foam
backer rod" method of
vibration damping. My Home Depot and Lowes no longer carry 5/8"
rod, so I went with 1/2". It was easier to install and seems
to work well (the irons feel GREAT).
I cut the rod into 4" lengths,
lightly coated them with linseed
oil, and inserted them as deep in the shaft as a 1/2" dowel
would allow. I measured this length and then used a 3/8"
dowel
to push the rod about 1 1/2" further down the shaft (checking
twice for any "rebound" of the foam).
It was somewhat of a pain to get the
hosel depths, COG, and other
parameters the Balistik software required, but achieving the
Target frequency was very easy.
/Ed
Thanks Ed, much appreciated information. Balistik is Back.
Carey
Ed, I received three evaluation shafts this morning.
I have weighed them (Ohaus triple beam)
and the weight
tolerances in my small sample were a little better than the set
you received.
1. 129.6 grams
2. 129.7
3. 130.3
I'll do a frequency test when I have a little more time.
Carey
Here are the results of my initial
tests of the Balistik
software to predict Patriot shaft trimming. (I believe
the software is the September 1999 version).
The quick answer is that it did a pretty good job.
I did two tests. The first with a Ping
Eye2 6i, unweighted,
at a low frequency. The second with the same head, with tip
weight, at a higher frequency. (The second test represented
where I really wanted to end up. The first test just gave me
some leeway in case it predicted too much tip trim).
Tools that made the job easier: GS
C.G. finder, dial caliper
to easily determine where to trim when the trim is expressed
in thousandths of an inch.
DETERMINE CRITICAL MEASUREMENTS
2.3125 - Back of head to hosel
2.375 - Head C.G. from top of hosel (Used GS C.G. finder)
1.3125 - Shaft insertion depth
50g - Grip weight
3.74 - Grip C.G. (default and matched my grips)
.125 - End grip thickness (default)
5" - Clamp length (to decipher your frequency target)
128g - Shaft weight
259 - Head weight
FIRST TEST
Entered a target frequency of 303 cpm. Software determined
Tip Trim 3.311
Butt Trim 4.314
Used the dial caliper to determine
Tip Trim, and then trimmed.
Positioned Shaft in 5" Clamp based upon Butt Trim. Used fishing
line to secure head and twanged.
Result - 303 cpm, just as desired!!!
SECOND TEST
Used a 4g tip weight to bring head weight up to 263g. Measured
the "lip" of the tip weight and decreased the Shaft
insertion
depth by .05
Entered a target frequency of 308 cpm.
Software determined
Tip Trim 4.326
Butt Trim 3.349
Also, swingweight was predicted at
D2, just as www.silvershot.com
predicted.
Feeling confident after the first test
I trimmed as directed,
positioned shaft and twanged.
Result - 307 cpm, 1 cpm off the target
(I first thought maybe the
tip weight threw things off, but weight in the hosel would tend
to make the readings higher if anything).
Anyway, being too low is better than
too high, as all I needed
to do was trim some more tip.
I now entered a target frequency of
309 cpm. I, based upon the
software, that I needed .233 additional tip trimming (and a change
in the butt trimming). This seemed to be a lot, so I only trimmed
.147. Guess what, it didn't change. I did need the full .233
to get to 308 cpm.
ASSEMBLED CLUB TEST
I used SA2000 to assemble the club. Twanged it and got 307 cpm!
No idea what happened. I would have expected if anything it
would have been higher, as the head would "wobble" less
than
when just secured with fishing line.
Now the embarrassing part. I butt trimmed
at the wrong point
and cut it too short. (Trying to watch the golf tournament
while building clubs). So I fitted a section of an old AP44
stepped shaft as an extension. The club still swingweighted
at D2, but the reading is suspect.
HITTING
Went to range and hit a few balls. Wasn't striking the ball
well but the shaft felt great. "Exactly" like my 308
cpm
Balistik demo 6i (I say this very much tongue in cheek, if
it is within a flex it is hard for me to tell differently).
CONCLUSION
Too few data points to tell, but it looks promising. If you
don't have a frequency meter it looks like it would still do
a decent job. If you do have a frequency meter, it looks like
it gives you a good starting point for your initial trimming.
I'm looking forward to other tester's results.
/Ed
I received 12 of John's Patriot Shafts,
CT44, and here's
what I found.
The shafts look exactly like the old
Balistiks.
Certainly a
subjective test, but when "pool cue" rolling the shafts
on a
flat surface they seemed to be much straighter than I
recalled
my last batch of Balistiks.
All the shafts were 44" long.
I weighted them on my GS
electronic
scale and checked their spine on my Neu-Finder. The
spine is
expressed in thousandths of an inch and really just
represents
the degree of spine (or probably straightness) among the
shafts.
All shafts were Type 1 (a Natural Bend
Point with a
Spine 180*
opposite).
Shaft Weight Spine
1 127g .003
2 127.5 .013
3 127.5 .011
4 128 .020
5 128 .028
6 128 .018
7 128 .015
8 128 .010
9 128 .028
10 129 .006
11 131 .025
12 132 .009
John's web site says that the shafts are supposed to be 130g.
Shafts 1, 8, and 12 were frequency
checked (the lightest, "standard,"
and heaviest). 5" clamp, 254g tip weight. All shafts clamped
so
that the NBP and Spine were on the "plucking plane."
The butt frequency was checked with
the weight at the tip of the
shaft and starting with 5" of the butt clamped (0" butt
trim).
The butt was moved 1" and a new frequency obtained. This
was
repeated until the butt was moved a total of 6".
The tip frequency was checked with
the weight initially at the
tip of the shaft and with 5" of the butt clamped. The butt
clamping remained the same and the tip weight was moved 1".
The shaft was NOT cut as the tip weight moved, so the readings
are skewed by the tip that protrudes out the tip weight.
Conventional wisdom says that for each inch of protruding tip
reduce the cpm reading by 1. (*)The tip readings reported have
all been adjusted using this formula.
Shaft 1 (127g)
Butt Trim 0"-249, 1"-257, 2"-265, 3"-274,
4"-283, 5"-292, 6"-301
Tip Trim* 0"-249, 1"-259, 2"-268, 3"-279,
4"-289
Shaft 8 (128g)
Butt Trim 0"-250, 1"-258, 2"-266, 3"-275,
4"-284, 5"-292, 6"-302
Tip Trim* 0"-250, 1"-259, 2"-269, 3"-279,
4"-290
Shaft 12 (132g)
Butt Trim 0"-252, 1"-260, 2"-269, 3"-278,
4"-287, 5"-296, 6"-305
Tip Trim* 0"-252, 1"-262, 2"-271, 3"-282,
4"-293
So Butt trim is roughly 8 cpm/inch
and Tip trim is roughly
10 cpm/inch with a 254g weight.
Unfortunately I don't have a Balistik
at hand to compare against.
Can probably find one, but not today.
Thanks, Ed.
So the Balistik was a little tighter in weight and the
Patriot a somewhat
tighter in frequency.
DaveT
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Reeder <eer1@j...>
To: clubmaker online <shoptalk@c...>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Patritot Shaft Update
Dave,
Good question regarding the Cpms of all the untrimmed
shafts, here are the results. All with a 254g tip weight, 5"
clamp. Discard the two heaviest shafts and you have a VERY
tight frequency distribution.
Shaft Weight Spine Cpms
1 127g .003 249
2 127.5 .013 249
3 127.5 .011 250
4 128 .020 249
5 128 .028 250
6 128 .018 250
7 128 .015 251
8 128 .010 250
9 128 .028 250
10 129 .006 250
11 131 .025 253
12 132 .009 252
/Ed
Testimonials
John - I hit my new Snake Eyes
FC-01's on the Patriots today at the range. My 5 iron ss is 74
mph. I cut the Patriots to the R flex. They felt wonderful.
I spined them using a unit built with Kevin's plans. One thing
that was interesting is it seemed like a few times when I "got
after it" a bit harder, generating probably at least 5 mph,
they still felt perfect. It isn't like a lot of shafts I have
hit where it seemed like if I swung too slow or too fast it would
not feel good. I used the Player's Snake Eyes Softies on them.
None of the shots felt harsh. They felt like Sensicores. The
shafts just never felt out of sync with the speed of the swing.
-Andy Ruigh