shoptalk-digest Saturday, 5 October 1996 Volume 01 : Number
017
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From: YMRN29A@prodigy.com (MR WILLIAM F ABBOTT)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:48:37, -0500
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Penick: Master or Classic
With respect to Golfsmiths pricing policy, I have discussed this with
Carl Paul, Britt Lindsey, ......., I believe that the reason their
prices are high in the retail catalog is so that we, the clubmakers,
can use this as a tool in selling our own equiptment, ie." I can make
you a set of these Penick irons for $400.00, retail would be $580.00,
" and show them the catalog to prove it! Golfsmith is not stupid,
this is a great marketing tool for us the real clubmakers!!.
------------------------------
From: Geoff Smith <a1a05831@bc.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:14:08 -0700
Subject: ShopTalk: Swing-weighting
How do you determine what the correct or ideal swing-weight it for a golf
club or each individual golfer?
------------------------------
From: "Glaser Jonathan" <Glaser_Jonathan@bah.com>
Date: 30 Sep 1996 16:48:04 -0500
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Swing-weighting
> How do you determine what the correct or ideal swing-weight it for
a golf
> club or each individual golfer?
___________________________________________________________________________
Swingweight.....Whats the right one ....
It depends.
D-O is 'standard' but it might be too heavy for some and light for others.
Its
based on 'standard' weight shaft (128g), grip (50g), and a standard weight
head (250g 4-iron). You can achieve the same swingweight with a light shaft
(118g) and a heavier head (252g) -- is it the same club because the SW is
the
same??? I think not.
I play a C-9 and really doubt whether I could tell the difference between
a
D-0/1 and my clubs. Whatever you choose, keep this in mind:
1) a ten pound club can be swingweighted to C-3 (very light) but wont hit
very
well
2) Keep the SW consistent throughout the set so the clubs feel the same
(except the PW and SW which will each be 3 SW points higher if you build
them
the same length as the 9-iron)
3) There are +/- tolerances for all golf components so you have to REALLY
know
what you are doing to truly SW match a set'o'clubs.
I recently went through a comprehensive club-fitting with a Class A clubmaker
(Dave Watson from Watson's Custom Clubs in Alexandria,VA -- great guy and
amazing knowledge of clubmaking and clubfitting). He came up with a
recommended flex and frequency for my clubs and from all that he came up
with
a swingweight. It was LAST on his list. (By the way -- he used a chart
from
a Golfsmith Clubmaker that related frequency/flex to swingweight -- I would
be
very interested if anyone out there has a copy of this chart and could share
it with the rest of us). so, dont worry -- as long as you are building
clubs
with good components and keep it in the ballpark (C-7 to D-3) dont fret
over a
point or two.
But then again, I could be wrong....
PS In my spare time (HA!) i've developed an Excel 5.0 spreadsheet that
includes Dave T's swingweight formulas -- I use it to approximate swingweight
for a set of clubs...note this word: APPROXIMATE! So far it has performed
well
for the 15 clubs I have assembled. You can put in the headweight, shaft
weight, grip weight, and determine if you have to add weight to the hosel
(shaft plug) to achieve a certain swingweight. Its a little rough, but
fun to
play with. Let me know if anyone's interested.
------------------------------
From: Jim Cosman <cosman@gnatnet.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:55:37 -0400
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Swing-weighting
Also I would like to find out information on determining the length of a
club for different sized golfers. I understand that there is a measurment
that can be taken from the hands at their sides to the ground. how is this
used in figuring club length? Jim
At 10:14 AM 9/30/96 -0700, you wrote:
>How do you determine what the correct or ideal swing-weight it for a
golf
>club or each individual golfer?
>
The Wizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzard.
------------------------------
From: sam@niagara.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:38:17 -0400
Subject: ShopTalk: technical help
>
>help!!
>
>could anyone help me with the steps to install a graphit shaft in a
bore
>through iron head.
>
>do you install shaft first, then trim and install end plugs??
>
>mike
>sam@niagara.com
>
>
>
------------------------------
From: miko <miko@julian.uwo.ca>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:53:55 -0400
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Swing-weighting
Glaser Jonathan wrote:
>
> PS In my spare time (HA!) i've developed an Excel 5.0 spreadsheet that
> includes Dave T's swingweight formulas -- I use it to approximate swingweight
There is another spreadsheet available:
ftp://ftp.ccs.queensu.ca/course/elec/peppard/
It uses Dave T.'s approximations for both
Swingweight
AND
Moment of Inertia.
Nifty spread sheet...
RE: Moment of Inertia,
See Dave Tutleman's notes on clubmaking at:
http://dunkin.princeton.edu/.golf/
- --
| |
db miko
Mac Shack Golf
PCS-Class A Clubmaker
London, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
From: Buddy and/or Shari Cotten <cotten@communique.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:04:50 -0500
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: technical help
sam@niagara.com wrote:
>
> >
> >help!!
> >
> >could anyone help me with the steps to install a graphit shaft
in a bore
> >through iron head.
> >
> >do you install shaft first, then trim and install end plugs??
> >
> >mike
> >sam@niagara.com
mike, its kind of a pain, but here's the process that I go through.
First, you need the same shaft - replacing an OEM proprietary shaft can
get a little tricky.
I going to assume that the bore through head is a callaway type.
Remove the existing shaft and SAVE.
Tip the replacement shaft as recommended.
Use shafting epoxy and black diffusing agent, expoxy the graphite pin in
place. If the shaft bore at the tip is too large for a graphite pin, run
a cork down the bore to within a 3/4 inch or so of the tip. Put the
blackened epoxy in the end of the shaft (you could also use black insert
epoxy, but for me its toooo messy to work with). Wait til cured before
moving on the next step.
Using the pulled shaft as a guide, cut the replacement shaft at the same
angle as the original shaft, making sure that the shaft graphics line up
correctly (this is the part that drives me nuts!).
Now, it's business as usual. Abrade the tip, clean the bore, slip on
the ferulle and expoxy into place.
Butt cutt and swingweight and regrip.
That's about it.
Buddy Cotten
Four Par Golf
Covington, Louisiana
------------------------------
From: Jim Rospopo <jrospopo@mc.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:17:57 -0500
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Swing-weighting
At 04:48 PM 9/30/96 -0500, Glaser Jonathan wrote:
much snipped
>PS In my spare time (HA!) i've developed an Excel 5.0 spreadsheet that
>includes Dave T's swingweight formulas -- I use it to approximate swingweight
>for a set of clubs...note this word: APPROXIMATE! So far it has performed
well
>for the 15 clubs I have assembled. You can put in the headweight, shaft
>weight, grip weight, and determine if you have to add weight to the
hosel
>(shaft plug) to achieve a certain swingweight. Its a little rough,
but fun to
>play with. Let me know if anyone's interested.
>
Hello Glaser
I am a begining club builder and would like to see your Excel spreadsheet.
I have Excel here so everything should run fine. Thanks for any help in
dealing with swingweights.
Jim Rospopo
e-mail jrospopo@mc.net
------------------------------
From: miko <miko@julian.uwo.ca>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:09:29 -0400
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: BoreThru Installation...
sam@niagara.com wrote:
>
> >
> >help!!
> >
> >could anyone help me with the steps to install a graphit shaft
in a bore
> >through iron head.
> >
> >do you install shaft first, then trim and install end plugs??
> >
I tend to install the shaft and trim in place with WOOD-WOODs, (you can
dress up the shaft end, and sole on a belt sander...)
On metal woods it's easier to trim the tip first.
IMPORTANT, be sure that the shaft end penetrates the sole plate.
RE: the end plug...it can be installed before glueing the shaft, or
after...
For a more through look at bore-thru installations see Joe Gillard's
article at the GolfCraft web-site:
http://www3.htp.com/steveg/golf/borethru.htm
- --
| |
db miko
Mac Shack Golf
PCS-Class A Clubmaker
London, Ontario, CANADA
------------------------------
From: Bluegill12@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:11:37 -0400
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Swing-weighting
i would be interested in seeing the spreadsheet. i have been doodling with
the same idea, BUT AM YET TO COME UP WITH ANYTHING THAT WORKS WITH ANY
CONSISTENCY. I CAN BE EMAILED AT BLUEGILL12@AOL.COM.
THANKS,
HOSS
------------------------------
From: John Payne <jcpayne@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 09:05:10 -0400
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Ping
<Snip>
>My father said he'd heard you cannot re shaft Pings?
>
>Anyone had experience reshafting. Is the Shaft non-standard in bore?
>
>Thanks for any help
>
>Dan Crowley
Dan,
I'm not absolutely sure but I think Ping uses a taper tip shaft in their
irons. That's not a big problem but I also think that if you reshaft
yourself, Ping will no longer honor the warranty. Give Ping a call I'm sure
they give you the answer on both questions.
John in Duluth
------------------------------
From: mpace@juno.com (Morgan W Pace)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 07:48:22 PST
Subject: ShopTalk: Mfg. tolerances on metal wood heads
ShopTalk has been very quiet; thought I would air one of my club making
gripes:
To begin with, a Mfg .tolerance of + or - 1 degree on a typical driver
head is not close enough to the vendors specified loft to allow club
makers to achieve the results they need to make decent quality clubs.
When I order a 10 degree driver head and the Mfg. tolerance (usually
stated in the catalog) allows the vendor to send me anything from 9
degrees to 11 degrees I am not receiving what I need. No need to say
there is quiet a difference between a 9 and an 11 degree driver on the
tee box.
Part of the reason this problem is irritating me is, one of the 10.5
degree drivers I ordered turned out to be 12 degrees and the last head
ordered was supposed to be 11 degrees but it measured 13 degrees.
I only build about 15 metal woods a year, so my experience would not make
a very reliable statistical sample. I have primarily used about three
sources for components and I think they are good companies. I just wish
they would insist on improved quality control from the folks that
manufacture the club heads for them. I have told one of my primary
sources about my concerns but doubt that a complaint from one customer
will have much impact. I have not tried it yet, but I have been thinking
about asking the component vendors when I place future orders, to check
metal wood heads for me and not send anything that exceeds + or - .5
degree of the stated loft.
Got thoughts ???
mpace
------------------------------
From: John Payne <jcpayne@randomc.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 10:13:10 -0400
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Mfg. tolerances on metal wood heads
Yes, it is very frustrating. I don't have loft & lie check for my wood
heads
but I'm sure what you say is true. I do have one for irons and I have yet
to
find a single set of clubs, custom built or OEM, where all meet the stated
specs. I have a feeling that cost is the main reason for these
inconsistencies. I have no idea how much checking each head would add to
its
cost. Fortunately, the companies that I deal with have always accepted
returns for the ones that were just so far out that I didn't even want to
try to adjust them.
Just my $.02
John
------------------------------
From: "Bruce L. Sublett" <bsublett@tcac.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 10:07:11 -0500
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Ping
John Payne wrote:
>
> <Snip>
> >My father said he'd heard you cannot re shaft Pings?
> >
> >Anyone had experience reshafting. Is the Shaft non-standard in
bore?
> >
> >Thanks for any help
> >
> >Dan Crowley
>
> Dan,
>
> I'm not absolutely sure but I think Ping uses a taper tip shaft in
their
> irons. That's not a big problem but I also think that if you reshaft
> yourself, Ping will no longer honor the warranty. Give Ping a call
I'm sure
> they give you the answer on both questions.
>
> John in Duluth
I put a set of graphite shafts in old Ping Eye 2's. They are taper
bored, so you have to use a .375 bit to ream them out. I don't know
about warranty, but I know they're the hardest heads I've ever tried to
ream--count on going through two or three titanium or cobalt-tipped bits
(at about $15 each) for a whole set. Lots of heat generated, even with
cooling oil. Try grinding the bit flat on the end rather than pointed
as for hole drilling.
Bruce Sublett
------------------------------
From: WSteve2@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 11:32:20 -0400
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Ping
Aldila and many other shaft makers sell graphite shafts that are made for
tapered irons. If you are going to reshaft Pings you should really use one
of
these shafts.
------------------------------
From: Jay Goodacre <bluejay@niagara.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:07:32 -0400
Subject: ShopTalk: Mfg. tolerances on metal wood heads
>To: ShopTalk@conch.aa.msen.com
>Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 07:48:22 PST
>Subject: ShopTalk: Mfg. tolerances on metal wood heads
>X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,10-11,14-15,25-31
>From: mpace@juno.com (Morgan W Pace)
>Sender: owner-shoptalk@conch.aa.msen.com
>Reply-To: ShopTalk@conch.aa.msen.com
>
>ShopTalk has been very quiet; thought I would air one of my club making
>gripes:
>
>To begin with, a Mfg .tolerance of + or - 1 degree on a typical driver
>head is not close enough to the vendors specified loft to allow club
>makers to achieve the results they need to make decent quality clubs.
>When I order a 10 degree driver head and the Mfg. tolerance (usually
>stated in the catalog) allows the vendor to send me anything from 9
>degrees to 11 degrees I am not receiving what I need. No need to say
>there is quiet a difference between a 9 and an 11 degree driver on the
>tee box.
>
>Part of the reason this problem is irritating me is, one of the 10.5
>degree drivers I ordered turned out to be 12 degrees and the last head
>ordered was supposed to be 11 degrees but it measured 13 degrees.
>
>I only build about 15 metal woods a year, so my experience would not
make
>a very reliable statistical sample. I have primarily used about three
>sources for components and I think they are good companies. I just
wish
>they would insist on improved quality control from the folks that
>manufacture the club heads for them. I have told one of my primary
>sources about my concerns but doubt that a complaint from one customer
>will have much impact. I have not tried it yet, but I have been thinking
>about asking the component vendors when I place future orders, to check
>metal wood heads for me and not send anything that exceeds + or - .5
>degree of the stated loft.
>
>Got thoughts ???
>
>mpace
>
>I agree totally.The problem will not go away if enough people don't
complain to their suppliers.Perhaps we need to get everyone here to put
their names to a pettion and send it on to as many suppliers as possible.Its
a neat trick if it were possible.
Bluejay
>
------------------------------
From: Tedd Childers <Tedd_Childers@ncsu.edu>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 96 15:48:25 EDT
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Mfg. tolerances on metal wood heads
At 07:48 AM 10/2/96 PST, you wrote:
>ShopTalk has been very quiet; thought I would air one of my club making
>gripes:
>
I deal with Paul Nickles at Raven golf, and for a small fee of about $1-2
per head he will set the heads to the exact loft and lie I request. Their
components are of high quality in my opinion, and less expensive than
Golfsmith or Golfworks. Even with the loft/lie adjustment, the heads run
less than most from Golfsmith and Golfworks. He can also frequency match
shafts for you if you are ordering shafts and heads from him. To properly
frequency match, he needs the exact shaft, head and final playing length,
so
he can only do it on heads and shafts he sells. I have found that most
customers will accept the slight price increase incurred in order to get
properly fitted clubs. Golf stores in my area (Raleigh, NC) charge up to
$4
per club to adjust loft/lie, so Paul's price is very fair. He can be
reached at 1-800-236-4566.
My biggest complaint with component club companies concerns the weights
of
the heads. The loft and lie can be adjusted on most irons up to 2 degrees
if needed, but weight is a harder subject to deal with. If the head is
too
light, lead can be added to the shaft, but if too heavy, then you have some
real problems. I personally don't like adding weight down the shaft, nor
do
I want to try to grind material off of my club head. Most manufacturers
have weight tolerances of +/- 3 grams, which seems awfuly high. That means
that a 5 iron that should weigh 257g could be as light as 254g. Not too
bad
unless the 6 iron that should weigh 264g weighs 267g. That means that
instead of the intended 7g differential, you have a 13g differential. That
calculates to a full 2 swingweight points!!! I have talked to Paul Nickles
at Raven about this also, and they seem willing to try and help, possibly
by
weight sorting heads. Again, I would be willing to pay a little extra for
the service if it means better clubs. Let me say however that so far ALL
of
the components I have received from Paul have had at the most a 9g and at
the least a 5g differential (with a reported 7g). Just my .02 worth.
------------------------------
From: Mario Mirabile <mariom@connexus.apana.org.au>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 08:47:48 +1000
Subject: ShopTalk: Re-shafting older Cobra woods
I have a pair of older Cobra fairway woods (Baffler Steel Classic model)
which have whipped hosels. I want to replace the existing TT Dynamic Gold
shafts with Brunswick UCV304 steel shafts.
I am wondering if anyone has experience with these heads and what lies
underneath the whipping. Is it purely cosmetic, and can I replace it with
a
normal ferrule, or will I have to have them re-whipped.
Also, do they take a standard .335" parallel tipped shaft, or are they
tapered?
Thanks in advance
Mario
========================================
Mario Mirabile Melbourne, Australia
========================================
------------------------------
From: jfrodriguez@jfrodriguez.seanet.com (Joe or Sue Rodriguez)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 21:23:30 -0700
Subject: ShopTalk: Titanium Driver Suggestions
I am interested in building a Titanium driver ala Taylor Made versions.
Does anyone have a suggested source and model that they would recommend?
I'm interested in using a Graphite shaft. I play to a 12 so a "lite"
shaft
is not a necessity.
Thanks in advance
Sue or Joe Rodriguez
jfrodriguez@jfrodriguez.seanet.com
------------------------------
From: jfrodriguez@jfrodriguez.seanet.com (Joe or Sue Rodriguez)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 21:23:34 -0700
Subject: ShopTalk: Taylor Made Bubble Shafts
Can the common folk buy Taylor Made bubble shafts?
Thanks
Sue or Joe Rodriguez
jfrodriguez@jfrodriguez.seanet.com
------------------------------
From: Joakim Thrane <Joakim.Thrane@bebslint.origin.nl>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 10:23:51 -0700
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Taylor Made Bubble Shafts
Joe or Sue Rodriguez wrote:
>
> Can the common folk buy Taylor Made bubble shafts?
>
> Thanks
>
> Sue or Joe Rodriguez
> jfrodriguez@jfrodriguez.seanet.com
Have a look at the copperhead from dynacraft
Same type (bubble) of shaft great head.
Works for me and ive spent hours comparing the 'real' bubble with this.
------------------------------
From: "Scott" <golfscot@netcom.industry.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 19:29:31 -0400
Subject: ShopTalk: Too Tall To Fit
Any ideas on making clubs, irons and woods, for someone who is 6ft-9in with
a finger to floor reach of 33 inches. The normal starting lenght of irons,
41inches, is already to short.
Scott Fishel
------------------------------
From: "Michael Duey" <miked@dcn.davis.ca.us>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 16:45:43 -0700
Subject: ShopTalk: To Re-Shaft Or Not To Re-Shaft
Hello,
Does anyone know if there is more than one golf club maker that goes under
the name "Precision"? I have e-mailed Jim Bopp at Precision Golf
Company
with the name and description of my broken clubs (which say Precision
Series II on
them) and he denies ever hearing of such a club. He also said that he
would "not recommend anyone re-shaft graphite clubs, unless they're
willing
to invest a couple of hundred dollars in equipment. Poor hosel &/or
shaft
preparation can easily cause shafts to break. Your clubs, frankly, do not
appear to have been made by a professional." (That's because some
of the
shafts broke, I assume.)
What are the dangers of re-shafting graphite clubs oneself (without
spending a couple of hundred dollars)? Am I a fool to consider it?
Where/Who is the other Precision golf club maker? I would sure appreciate
some comments, advice or opinions.
Thanks,
Michael Duey
miked@dcn.davis.ca.us
------------------------------
End of shoptalk-digest V1 #17
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